Find Your Niche - How AMTIL is REVOLUTIONIZING Aerospace Education [006]
Episode Summary
In this episode, Gus talks with Josh Wall, founder of Amtil (Aircraft Maintenance Technician Interactive Learning). Josh shares how he's revolutionizing aircraft maintenance training using virtual reality, gamification, and AI to create more effective learning experiences. As someone with experience as a pilot, mechanic, and engineering student, Josh identified critical gaps in how aviation maintenance is taught and is building technology to address these challenges.
Key Topics
- How Josh's background in aviation led him to identify gaps in maintenance training
- The critical shortage of aircraft maintenance technicians and its impact on aviation safety
- Using VR and gamification to make complex technical training more engaging and accessible
- The importance of in-person testing and customer feedback in product development
- Creating awareness about aircraft maintenance as a viable and lucrative career path
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Introduction & Background
Gus: Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Founder Facing. Today, I am joined by the one and only Josh Wall, who is creating a business that is very close to my heart. For those of you who don't know, I started in the virtual reality world. That was the first type of content that I created. And Josh is the founder of a company that is creating virtual reality training tools, which is one of the biggest and most impactful ways that VR can be used, in my opinion. He's creating a platform to educate and train folks on how to maintain something we use more than you even imagine, which is airplanes, a pretty important thing to be able to do. And you're basically innovating on how the mechanics are trained to be able to service the planes that are in flight nowadays. And I think that's super important. So welcome to the show.
Josh: Listen, I appreciate the invitation. It's really a pleasure to be here. Yeah, so a little bit of a background about me. I used to be a commercial pilot. I used to live in Europe. Then I came back here to the States. I got my hand into aviation maintenance. And while I was in my degree program for that, I decided to actually found a company called Amtil, which, of course, you've already given a great introduction about, as a means of really improving the education quality and the type of training tools that aircraft maintenance students across the country have here in the United States. Currently, I'm also in school for mechanical engineering, which will transfer into aeronautical engineering. So I think as we were talking about before, I'm kind of in that weird space of having that trifecta of being the pilot, the mechanic, and then also the engineer. So it's actually allowed me to really see so many different perspectives from aviation and to really see where the gaps are and to actually be able to plug that in with our tools.
Gus: 100%, man. I think that that's always... The founders that I talk to, that I have the best conversations with are always the ones who have gone through a process or have tried to use a tool. I mean, we were talking about the tool that we're recording on right now, which is the best that I've found, but there are still some gaps or some issues with it and some things that are just not as good. And the founders that I always like talking to the most are the people who have really personally found something to be missing in a market or in your case, the education space and have not only come up with a way to fill that gap, but to also innovate in other ways that completely kind of revolutionizes. I know that word gets thrown around a little bit, but that can actually leverage new technology and kind of come at a problem that most people might be overlooking in an industry from a completely new perspective. And also with that personal perspective of "I've done this before, I know what the gaps are, and I know the people that I'm selling to to be able to make the best product possible," right?
"If you're really going to do anything worthwhile, you kind of have to come from a point of empathy. This is a problem that I faced, and this is a problem that I saw other people facing."
– Josh Wall, Founder of Amtil
Josh: 100%. It's actually coming... What you're really touching on is coming from a level of empathy, right? Like actually empathizing with the problem. And I think that if you're really going to do anything worthwhile, you kind of have to come from a point of empathy. This is a problem that let's say I faced, and this is a problem that I saw other people facing, right? So a little bit of my background when I was in maintenance school, when word got around that I was a pilot, people were coming up to me in the library when I'd be studying through my books, and they'd be asking me questions on, what is ambient pressure, ambient temperature? What's a magneto? How does this work? And I mean, I knew a lot of this stuff because I already had training in it. And I loved education and I love teaching. So not before long, it would be one student, and then three students, and then five students, and then 10 students. And then now I'm teaching a little mini class inside of the library.
Josh: So that kind of really got me understanding that there's a little bit of an issue in terms of what the training tools are, and just the entire system. I was still trying to get through school because the plan was to actually just be an aircraft maintenance technician and just do that. And then I realized, wow, the books that we're reading, the textbooks that we're reading, they're filled with fluff. They're so wordy. A lot of the manuals that we were using to reference were from the 1960s, from the 1970s. And sometimes even some of the tools or the appliances that we would work on, some of them weren't necessarily in pristine condition. Some of them might've been broken already. So it's a little bit difficult to try to train someone to repair something to spec when it was broken in the first place. All those training inefficiencies that I saw, I figured there has to be a better way of doing this.
About Amtil & Its Mission
Gus: I love when I hear that. I love the "there has to be a better way." Tell me a little bit about what is Amtil and what are some of the problems that your company is hoping to solve? And what are some of the things that you found about the space that you're going into, which is education? What are kind of the incentive structures there? Because obviously we're in 2024 right now. I think everybody remembers probably being a little bit afraid to be on airplanes for a certain time period there where things were going a little bit haywire. So talk to me about the kind of incentive structure, kind of where the financials break down in terms of pilots, educators, mechanics, and also the people that build the planes. And then talk about how your company is hoping to make mechanics the most educated and the most capable in that role.
Josh: So in short, Amtil, which stands for Aircraft Maintenance Technician Interactive Learning, is an e-learning platform that utilizes gamification and AI and virtual reality to create effective learning scenarios and experiences for aircraft maintenance students and for aircraft maintenance technicians. So what we're doing is leveraging all these technologies to ultimately build the foundations for every aircraft maintenance student that's coming from Ab Initio to have them understand the complexities of aviation maintenance, but teach it to them in a way that is digestible.
Josh: Currently right now, it isn't digestible. Like I was talking about before, there's just a lot of fluff. And even from the research that we were doing initially, talking about product research and market research, we found about 30% to 40% of the people that are coming into this profession as a maintenance technician, they're coming in from professions or sectors that have nothing to do with science. So they're coming in from admin or they're coming in from the food industry, from the service industry and so forth.
Gus: Interesting.
Josh: What's really lucrative about aircraft maintenance as a profession, as a career, is that it's extremely high paying. One of the higher paying jobs out there. And then the barrier to entry is relatively low. You can get your license and your certification within two months. So for the amount that you're putting in in terms of the cost as well as the time, that pays out pretty quickly once you get out.
The Aviation Maintenance Shortage
Josh: As of right now, there are about 192 FAA Part 147 maintenance schools in the country, which is actually up from 2020, where maybe there was like 180. But the bottom line is that that's not a lot of schools. There's only around maybe 20,000 students in the country as of right now.
Gus: Per year kind of thing? Or like over the course of... You said it was like a two-year program to get certified?
Josh: Yes, essentially it's a two-year program. So there are either programs that are mom-and-pop shops or programs that are part of technical colleges or community colleges or programs that are part of four-year universities or institutions. So it varies quite widely. But what the real issue here currently is, is that there's this wild shortage of maintenance technicians. A lot of them were actually forced out, were forced to take early retirement during the pandemic, because airlines were in financial trouble.
"When you're an aircraft mechanic or a maintenance technician, it's literally all trades in one. You're a plumber, a welder, a woodworker, an electrician. Aircraft maintenance technicians are so versatile."
– Josh Wall, Founder of Amtil
Josh: This maintenance shortage or workforce shortage was already in existence. The COVID situation actually just accelerated it. And there wasn't enough done to really get a handle or grip on how we're going to attract new people into the industry. So now you have this situation where you've essentially let go a lot of the mechanics that were the most experienced. And as we're talking about with reps, this is a type of profession that you need the experience. That's it. There's no other substitute for experience. The most experienced ones are out. Now, lockdowns end and passenger travel rebounds. It rebounds actually incredibly. No one was actually able to anticipate just how wild it would be.
Gus: It was even higher than it was previously. Because I was like, get me out of my house. I need to go on vacation. So it was insane.
Josh: And as a result, now you have all these planes that are coming back online. And you don't have enough mechanics to fix them. You also don't have enough pilots to fly them. So shortly after the lockdowns ended, airlines were forced to cancel flights left and right. You just don't have the people to fix the planes, you don't have the people to fly them. And now this is really just getting bigger and bigger as a problem.
Josh: And then on top of that, aviation maintenance is such an interesting career choice. Because when you're an aircraft mechanic or a maintenance technician, it's literally all trades in one. So you're a plumber - there are hydraulic lines. You have to know welding. There are some aircraft that are still flying that are made out of wood. So you have to know how to refurbish those and bring those back up to spec. You have to know how to work with composites with fiberglass and carbon composites. You have to know electronics. Everything is electronic now. So you're an electrician. You are so many different things. And so aircraft maintenance technicians are so versatile that they're often plucked from the industry into going to other things.
VR Technology & Training Applications
Gus: I think that training and teaching through virtual reality makes a ton of sense. I think it's really smart of you to not only just offer the VR aspect, because it requires the hardware, it requires the space. And so you're kind of tackling both of those where your business model is both for universities and places of education to try to set up these high quality VR experiences, but also a course that anybody can just go to and learn from on their computer or on their phone, right?
Josh: Precisely. My initial experience in aviation was as a pilot, was flight ops. And pilots go for certification every six months, recertification to qualify themselves to continue flying. Me understanding what it's like to be in a simulator, what it's like to be immersed, totally immersed. That's why I like virtual reality compared to AR, because if you treat it as reality, it then becomes reality. So you're in the cockpit and you're in the simulator that's absolutely not real and you're tackling emergency procedures. And at the end of it, your back is just filled with sweat.
Josh: And so then coming into the maintenance side and understanding, okay, well, why can't we do that here? The pandemic was actually one of the good things that came about was that it kind of really, I think we would have gotten here eventually as an industry in terms of the VR industry, but I definitely think it was a catalyst. I think COVID was for sure a catalyst of really propelling so much capital into this space to really build it up.
Josh: It's really an awesome time to be either an educator or be working in that space because now you're really talking about transforming, not only aviation maintenance, but just in general, just all industries, especially the things that are very tactile in nature. You're talking about immersing them and you're talking about them getting an infinite amount of reps and an infinite amount of practice.
Josh: But to come to the other side of it in terms of monetizing it, making something for schools that they can enterprise naturally and have a platform with an LMS that schools could use, but it's also democratizing this information. It's also democratizing this education, making it accessible to people that otherwise might not actually have the chance to even consider taking a trip down this potential career path of aviation maintenance.
Josh: The things that we've created in VR are also things that you can play on your phone, or they're also things that you could play on your computer. You can use a literal game console controller and you're doing homework. It's actually homework. Your teacher will say, do your homework assignment tonight, and the parents are looking at their kid and their kid is on the television, just playing with his Xbox controller. It's like, "What are you doing?" And they say, "No, this is actually my homework." It's thinking outside the box and really making it engaging, especially for this next generation of mechanics, which we need now more than ever.
Product Testing & Customer Feedback
Gus: You mentioned something when we first chatted about going to your ICPs in person and how that investment has really paid off for you because of the types of folks and the type of institutions that you're trying to have join your platform. So you can tell me a little bit about that and like how you discovered that avenue was a really solid way to spend your marketing dollars.
Josh: I think I've realized, especially when everything is digital, or I should say virtual - we're having this conversation virtually right now. And I think that as we continue to push into that and lean into that, there is something to be said about there being real meaning in doing things in person. I don't think there's any replacement for that.
Josh: When in the realm of being a startup, you're trying to fix a problem. There's a problem and you're trying to either have the solution or you're iterating on various types of solutions. But ultimately you have to test that. You have to test those assumptions. And what I realized was, okay, well, we're dealing with a massive problem. Our target audience isn't actually that large. Like I said, there's like 192 schools. So it's not inconceivable to actually go to all those schools in person.
Josh: We've gone to quite a few throughout the years. And, of course, spreading brand awareness. And over time that should be able to sort of compound with social media, et cetera. But going to these places in person and actually doing in-person moderated testing, where you're actually seeing the interactions with students and you're seeing the interactions with instructors, getting their actual real feedback. It goes so far.
Josh: I read this book called The Mom Test. It was recommended to me to read it before doing our testing. The plan that I had along with my colleague when we were first doing it was 180 degrees the opposite. Like we would have totally screwed that up. Reading that book allowed me to really take myself out of the equation and to be as objective as possible.
Josh: It was such a weird experience because you would think that when you're asking really critical questions and they're saying, "I don't like this" or "I don't like that" or "this is something that I wouldn't do." You would think that those would be almost like microscopic knives that are just constantly being shagged into your heart. And I wanted more. I just kept asking for more information. Like, why is it... Just tell me more. Just tell me more. Just speak.
"That first initial experience with our in-person testing, it reignited this flame in me. It made me realize, like, this is really what I want to do. You're seeing the benefit of it, but they're also seeing the benefit of it."
– Josh Wall, Founder of Amtil
Josh: All of our sessions that we've done, we've recorded them, and we've hours and hours of footage to be able to see reactions and really do it the right way. And that first initial experience that we did with our in-person testing, it sort of reignited this flame in me. It was kind of dying out for a while, but it reignited this flame in me of saying, I can do this for another five years. Five, ten years. It made me realize, like, actually, this is really what I want to do. And you're seeing the benefit of it, but they're also seeing the benefit of it. And just being there in person, it made them feel so comfortable that the criticisms weren't... they were coming from a good place.
Gus: They could probably recognize that you're trying to make something that will help them. And they're like, I can see the potential. So, obviously, if I could use this someday, that would be huge. But if I were to use this, these are the things that I would want changed.
Josh: It's delicious. It's like, give me more of this, please. You know it's not coming from malice. And once you get that data, then it's like, what do you do with that data? What do you do with those learnings? Well, then you iterate. And so, that's the version that we'll be launching this year, with all the learnings that we've taken from the testing that we had before.
Josh: This process of being a startup founder is freaking tough. But those are the very rewarding parts of it. Those are those moments where you're like, okay, this is actually worth staying up at four o'clock in the morning, and pulling all nighters, and all the travel that you have to do, and all the sacrifice and financial sacrifice that you have to do. It's worth it.
Advice for Founders
Gus: Well, Josh, this has been so much fun. If there's one thing you can give to other founders who are in similar stages, what would it be?
Josh: It's going to sound cliche, but don't give up. Like that's literally, you hear these cliches, right? And then it's like, oh, this is a cliche, but it's a cliche for a damn reason. With my upbringing, I'm first generation American. So education was really, really held as high importance. And so I grew up thinking that all the people who I saw were successful, they were just geniuses or they're just really high IQ, or they're just talented in some way, shape or form.
Josh: And it's only really doing this for the past five years that I've realized, one in terms of my journey, but also so many other people that I've met - some people are very overwhelming, some people are very underwhelming. But yet they're in certain positions. And then you realize like, oh, it's more than half the battle is actually just sticking with it. More than half the battle is actually just not quitting. Like if you don't quit, there's so many times where you want to quit and then you don't quit. And then you get this check where it's like, oh shoot, I'm glad I really didn't quit because, damn, this opportunity was waiting for me three weeks down the line. And if I quit then I wouldn't have gotten it. So it's really just holding out and not quitting.
Gus: 100%. I think that's valuable info. So Josh, where can we find you? Where can we find your company? Where can we find what you're doing?
Josh: You can check us out at Amtil.co. So that's A-M-T-I-L.co or alphamiketangoindialima.charlieosper. Throwing a little phonetic alphabet there. Or you can follow us on social at handle Amtil Edutech. And that's on LinkedIn, Instagram, et cetera. All the social media platforms, all the things.
Gus: Amazing, man. Well, thank you so much for being on. We'll have to have you back in a couple of months just to see where the travels have taken you. You were coming to Texas too, so maybe we'll see each other in person.
Josh: Yeah, I'm looking forward to that.
Gus: Awesome, man. Well, it was a pleasure having you on. Thanks so much for your insights and best of luck with everything.
Josh: Appreciate you, man. Cheers. We'll talk soon. Peace.
Resources Mentioned
- Amtil - Josh's platform for aircraft maintenance technician training
- The Mom Test - Book mentioned by Josh about product testing and customer interviews
